Vertical Hold Episode 285 Transcript
What happens with the “done” NBN, what’s the future of 5G plans?
Alex Kidman @alexkidman: Freelance Tech Journalist, Co-host @VerticalHoldAU, Former editor at CNET, Gizmodo, PC Mag, Finder and many more.
Adam Turner @adam_turner: Award-winning Australian freelance technology journalist with @theage @smh, corporate writer and co-host @VerticalHoldAU tech news podcast
Phil Britt, managing director, Aussie Broadband
Tegan Jones, editor, Gizmodo Australia
Adam Turner: As we reach the end of the NBN volume build what comes next?
Alex Kidman: What’s in the future of 5G pricing?
AT: Vertical hold is proudly brought to you by Aussie broadband. Changing the game with their award winning network an Australian based support
AK: Hi there. Welcome to Vertical Hold: Behind the Tech News, the weekly podcast where we catch up with Australia’s leading technology journalists to get the stories behind the tech news of the week. I’m Alex Kidman and I’m joined by Adam Turner, a man who’s stuck back in lockdown because he basically lost the postcode lottery.
AT: Oh man. Don’t even start me. I’m not happy because I really don’t think my suburb should have got dragged into this. It’s one of those things where one postcard covers several suburbs and here I am I’m stuck in lock down again. But at least it gives me another four weeks to work on my Donkey Kong high score.
AK: There’s a line from The Castle that comes to mind and I’ll leave it at that. We’re also joined in the virtual Vertical Hold studios by Gizmodo editor Tegan Jones. Tegan, Welcome back to the show.
TJ: Thank you for having me.
AK: Later on we’re going to talk about everything that’s happening in the world of 5G but first we turn our attention to the world of mostly fixed-line broadband with a hot serve as our soup du jour, the NBN. It’s July 2020, which means the NBN rollout should be done and dusted and it is as long as you don’t count the hundred thousand out homes dumped in the too hard basket.
Earlier on in the week we caught up with Phil Britt a veteran of the Australian broadband industry and managing director of our podcast sponsor Aussie Broadband to talk about the NBN reaching the end of the volume build and what comes next.
FIRST SEGMENT: Phil Britt, managing director, Aussie Broadband
As we reach the end of the NBN volume build what comes next?
AT: Phil, welcome to the show.
PB: Yes thanks very much guys.
AT: So we’ve reached the end of the NBN volume build. What exactly does that mean and what comes next?
PB: Look I guess it the way I’d describe it is they’ve gotten to the end of the main build and all that’s left is pretty much the hard stuff.
So that’s the premises that they haven’t been able to connect along the way and so there’s still more work to go but they’ve done with all the – I wouldn’t use the term easy – but they’ve done with all the main build.
AT: So that’s about a hundred thousand that are still left?
PB: Yeah that’s roughly the figure that we’re hearing and that’ll take some time to work through because there’s lots of civil construction issues or building access issues that they’ve got to work through. So their approach the first time around was just whack in as much as they could as quick as I could. And then now they have to go back and deal with all the things that they’ve avoided along the way.
AT: I know one of our longtime listeners Jason from Warragul sent us a tweet saying he’s still listening via 4G at home because he can’t even get DSL let alone NBN. And he maybe, they’ve just come through in the last couple of days and said yeah you can sign up. But a lot of people have been pushed back now to September and beyond. So it does look like some people are gonna be waiting till at least Christmas if not into next year?
PB: There’s lots of little pockets that are like that we’ve got a core business kind of ours that has a home in Toorak and it keeps getting pushed out by months, that sort of thing, so there’s lots of these little pockets around where there’s been some little shortfall that they need to work around.
AT: It’s nice to know what’s happening to Toorak as well, so they’re not picking on people by, you know, income level. It doesn’t matter where you are, everyone’s equal you just might happen to miss out.
PB: No that’s the thing and look a lot of even NBN senior executives only just actually got on to the NBN in the last month or so because they live in sort of inner Melbourne, inner Sydney kind of areas and those are the last areas that have been rolled out.
AK: With that in mind, the rollout pace was picking up, and obviously this year has been a little bit different, but do you have a gut feel of how long it might take them to to hit that point?
PB: Look it’s pretty hard to say but I think it’ll be at least another 12 months to work through those last premises. They’re going to require quite a bit of project management and dealing with that. But it’s anyone’s guess at the moment how long that’s going to be.
AK: With the NBN reaching this kind of semi-complete state, I guess it also changes the conversation we have around people switching to the NBN to people being on the NBN already. As an ISP in a competitive space, how do you approach that kind of change?
PB: Lok we’ve already been sort of dealing with that to a degree. Around about fifty five percent of our customers each month coming in via swapping from other RSPs. So the churn in, as we call it, is certainly alive and well in this market. As the what we call the land grab, which is the people that are forced to connect, start to happen, or start to die off, that churn is going to be more important for providers like us to keep building our base because we’re 100 percent driven off organic growth, we don’t go around and buy up other companies. We just rely on people hearing about us and swapping because they like the service.
AT: So how much of that new traffic would you say of people coming in because you’re offering some faster plans that are above 100 meg and how much of it is just because people are looking to change from their existing telco for some other reason?
PB: Look, the percentages haven’t shifted a great deal over the last few months since we introduced the high speed plans, but it certainly typically when we see people churning it is because they want 100 meg or above. But when we released the gig/50 and the 250/25 plans about a month ago, we did see quite a churning event around that. There’s now about 2 percent of our base that are actually on those plans, so around 5000 customers, which we were surprised at. The guys in the network team said “So, how big do you think this is going to be, so we can dimension for it?”. I said “I reckon we might get 500 or a thousand customers” and we had done that within the first sort of few hours and everyone was going “ah, there’s actually a lot more demand here for high speed than what people realise”.
AK: So how do you actually handle your provisioning of that. I say that as someone, I’m on one of your 250 plans I’ve noticed I often peak above what you promised you’re going to give me, which is quite nice obviously. But presumably there’s a balancing act there.
PB: Look there is a balancing act and I guess there’s a little bit of an artificial benefit at the moment because NBN is providing additional CVC bandwidth due to COVID, we’ve got a lot of extra headroom in the network. When we released those plans, we made it fairly clear that during peak times speed may vary. And it will be greater than sort of the two hundred meg plans. But if you’re in the gig. People at the moment are getting gig speed tests all through the peak and are happy as Larry.
But I think once that CVC steps back, as part of the COVID relief it’ll come back, the way we manage bandwidth is through I guess a dynamic provisioning tool we call CVC bot and it watches the traffic levels in real time and will adjust the bandwidth in real time.
So say for example there’s a new game update that’s coming out that we don’t know about. It will see the traffic rise and it will start to increase the CVC automatically in sort of 15 minute increments.
AK: We sort of joked about actually on a recent episode about Call of Duty updates, are they really that significant? Do you genuinely see them coming through the network and realise, right, prepare for the tsunami?
PB: Absolutely we do and there’s one due to hit again today. And basically we see around about 20 to 25 per cent increase in total network load when a Call of Duty update comes out. They are just, there’s a lot of players and they’re very big updates.
AT: So it’s interesting that Paul Fletcher has been talking this week about what might happen next with the NBN and he said that future upgrades will depend on customer demand. So do you think that the kind of demand that you’re seeing for faster than 100 meg plans bodes well for whether we might get upgrades to the NBN so more people can access those kind of plans?
PB: Look I think that’s part of it but I think it probably translates to customers willing to pay for upgrades, is probably the underlying message there. Tt’s certainly they’re moving to more a model where you pay a few thousand dollars for a technology swap and that’s probably how the upgrades will occur.
I think the other clear message he’s putting across is that, I guess, the free part of the NBN is done and dusted. If you want more than what you’ve got today then it’s gonna be some sort of paid upgrade.
AT: So you don’t think that upgrades in the future would focus on trying to bring up the people on the lowest fibre to the node plans that maybe are struggling to even get 50?
PB: Look I think there will be some of that go on, but I think it will be to get them to a point where they if they can’t get sort of 50 and a little bit more then yes they’ll probably get an upgrade path. I think that’ll probably be FttC, which is which is running really well but still those plans aren’t available today even though the technology in theory will support it.
But if you’re already on FttN and you’re getting in the 80 meg plus kind of realm, I think it’s gonna be a case – and this is just speculation at the end of the day – but it’s gonna be some sort of paid upgrade.
AK: Do you think we’ll see then a change in the way they price those paid upgrades? Because it’s been one of those big sticking points with consumers, a lot of people said: I’d like to do the technology choice, I’m fibre to the curb, but they’ve quoted me twenty thousand dollars or something fairly outrageous. Do you think we’ll see a bit more, well not competition, but slightly friendlier prices to convince people that that’s a good deal?
PB: Look I think in the case of FttC it should be certainly a lot lower than what’s been quoted, because literally the fibre is sitting outside your front door almost. It’s just getting that last bit in, and it should probably be, I dunno, less than three grand to bring that in.
But the ones that are on fibre to the node, that are say 500 meters from the node, there is more work involved but it still shouldn’t be these 50, 60 grand kind of bills that we’re seeing people get quoted. It’s just not realistic and I think if it had a more commercial front around it than the nose process should be a lot lower.
AT: So now that we’ve reached the end of the volume build and we can kind of see what’s left. What do you, what are the big issues facing the NBN going forward? I mean, I know there’s a lot of different ways to look at that, but from an infrastructure perspective?
PB: Look, I see the big issue is actually around the CVC side of things, this artificial constraint or construct that is in the pricing model. We’re seeing bandwidth, or customers’ demand for bandwidth increase 25 percent year on year, but the inclusions that NBN puts in their plans or the amount of included CVC isn’t keeping up with that level of growth. And so this is going to create a real margin squeeze for RSPs.
And the danger becomes either they have to solve it commercially, which means that we say peak time congestion start to kick back in, so step back to say two years ago. That’s not going to be very palatable for the consumer base. And so certainly RSPs like us that always provide the right speeds certainly don’t want to go down that path but the margins involved in these services are so slim that there’s basically not much room for error. And so I see the biggest issue with the NBN is still around that CVC construct data wiping it away altogether, which would certainly be our strong preference, but in the absence of doing that basically increasing the inclusions.
AK: Well we know we’d say they say that the COVID-19 boost that you mentioned earlier, that’s due to expire at this point on the 19th of August. Does that mean consumers should worry that come the 19th of August suddenly general NBN connections are going to downgrade because obviously providers can’t afford to just say “ah we’ll take a 40 percent cut to our own revenues”?
PB: Well as of, and we’ve pulled some data today because we’re working on this, traffic levels are still over 10 percent above what we would expect to see them at this point in time. And so to put it in perspective our overage bill, or our excess CVC bill, today is half a million dollars a month. We’re expecting that to grow to probably about nine hundred thousand dollars by September and that that’s a pretty big hit.
And even for a provider that’s at our scale with quarter of a million customers kind of thing, there’s just not the margins in everything else. So the NBN ballot is the most expensive bandwidth we buy anywhere in the network. Everything else is in the sort of cents per megabit kind of realm. This is eight dollars a megabit for access and it’s either going to translate to providers basically solving it commercially or have to do other creative ways of doing it.
AT: All right well it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out over the next couple of months. Phil thank you very much for your time.
PB: No worries. Thanks very much for the opportunity.
SECOND SEGMENT: Tegan Jones, editor, Gizmodo Australia
What’s in the future of 5G pricing?
AK: So with it being July it’s also come time for Telstra to start charging extra for 5G because when it launched 5G a year ago it said everyone can have it for free. But, after a year, if you want it if you’re not on the top two tiered plans you’ll have to give us 15 bucks a month more. But Tegan that’s not exactly what actually happened is it?
TJ: No. So, just this week, Telstra refreshed all of its plans again. So essentially what’s happened is that the small, medium and large plans have all gone up by five dollars. The extra large plan has gone up by 15 dollars – this is all postpaid of course – and now the medium plans will also get 5G thrown in for free. But a really weird thing is going on with the small plans, because according to Telstra a small number of their customers on those small plans do have 5G handsets and instead of charging the 15 dollar bolt-on, that was the original plan, they are going to be migrating those customers onto the medium plan so essentially making them go up a price tier.
Now they’re going to sweeten the pot on that by offering a rebate that basically just gives them back the difference between those two plans for the first twelve months but after that they are on a higher plan and paying for it.
AK: And that’s only if you’re already one of those small customers. You can’t come up and say “oh I want a small plan but I want 5G, give me the rebate,” can you?
TJ: No I believe not. Look the thing about this that’s been so complicated because even though a year ago you know they went for something like fourteen hundred plans down to roughly 20 across business and consumer. There’s still so many you know grandfathered plans and things like that that it is still actually quite messy and difficult to work out some of those nuanced questions like that. And we haven’t gotten answers on all of them yet. So look I would assume that if you want to go on the small plan at a later date but also on 5G, you might not be able to. Like, as far as I can tell, they’re not doing the bolt on any more.
AK: It doesn’t, certainly if you look at this site, it doesn’t seem to exist.
You mentioned grandfathering though because they’re also doing something new there.
AK: Previously, if you were a Telstra customer you could generally stay on an old plan as long as you wanted to after a certain period of time that really didn’t make much sense. But some people still did. But they’ve actually said “Yeah look granddad’s actually getting taken out to the barn with a shotgun”.
TJ: Yeah pretty much. So again a bit of a weird one to explain but essentially Telstra is giving custom sort of on these grandfathered plans – and obviously also small to medium 5G one as well, just to complicate things – essentially they’re giving them three months to move on to the equivalent new plan.
And that’s only the people that are on these newer Telstra ones by the way. So they’ll give them three months to move over and if they do they’ll get the rebate and they’ll also get all of the extra data that also is being attached to these new plans. If they don’t move over manually by September 30 they will be moved over by force essentially and they won’t get the rebate.
But then you’ve also got people on the very old plans, that you’re talking about, who just will need to move over onto what the closest equivalent plant is. I’ve been hearing colloquially from some customers that they’re actually not ending up in a better space. So basically a lot of the people that were on last year’s plans that might be paying a little bit extra now will at least get a ton more data. But some people are in some pretty sweet old plans where now they have to, they’re going to have to, kind of pay more for nothing extra.
So I know that’s a really long explanation but that’s how complicated it is.
AK: It’s a really complicated kind of story though, it’s totally fine. I think the really key thing there is Telstra saying we’re killing these grandfathered plans and the new ones are generally a little bit more expensive. Yes there’s more data but we want more of your cash.
TJ: Absolutely. And you’re in some very specific cases that I’ve heard they weren’t necessarily getting more data just because maybe they got a really good deal however long ago whatever it happened to be.
So it’s all very complicated and yeah. Well I mean, I guess the good news for Telstra is that if you take into account that apparently four million Australian customers of theirs are already on one of these last year plans, as we’ll call them, at a minimum they’re going to be now getting an extra five dollars a month. It’s obviously more than that because the extra large plans get an extra 15 dollars. But at a minimum now, Telstra is going to end up having an extra 20 million dollars of revenue per month thanks to these new plans.
AT: So Tegan this the way that we thought it would play out? Because I know when they first announced they were going to give it away for free and then charge 15 bucks people, said yeah right. We’re sure that at the last minute they will change, you’ll change your mind and do it a different way. Is this the way that you thought it would play out?
TJ: No. I thought that they would get rid of it in some way or bake it into a price hike. That’s what I expected and you know theoretically that’s what happened. What I did not expect was this grandfathering situation which is what is really I think actually upsetting people. I don’t really think people care that much about the 5G issue comparatively. But this idea that, you know, last year the narrative around these new simplified plans was no locking contract, that’s great for the consumer because you can move up and down as you please you can even leave Telstra and you won’t get pinged for it unless you have to pay out your phone if you’ve got one.
But now it’s like it’s been turned on consumers’ heads, because if no looking contracts goes one way now it’s going the other way. No more grandfathered plans. So it’s not necessarily great news for consumers, especially if they are paying off an expensive handset. You know this idea that we never really know if maybe they can just hike prices up again by five bucks next year. That’s a lot to some people and the idea that “oh well you know what. If you don’t like it just simply leave” and they have to pay out what eight hundred dollars, a thousand dollars, fifteen hundred dollars an expensive handset? These people didn’t buy outright for a reason, because they probably can’t afford it. So it’s really classist in my opinion and does not leave a lot of room for the consumer.
AK: It’s an interesting one in that 5G space. As you say, it’s kind of new, I don’t know there’s so many people who would be absolutely passionate about it.
TJ: I agree
AK: Although having been testing out their hotspot recently they have at least expanded beyond that little blob of North Sydney that I think we were all testing it.
TJ: Yes absolutely.
AK: But they are seeing some 5G competition. I mean Optus this week said they are starting millimeter wave trials and I guess that’s the next phase where 5G and 5G differentiation might really start to make some value out of those 5G only plans.
TJ: Yeah look I think that it will in the coming years. I think that you’re right. Right now, throwing in the 5G on medium, large and extra large plans isn’t really that much of a big deal. There are some people that are early adopters that are into it but the problem that I’ve always had with this idea of charging extra for 5G is that they’re offering it for free for a year – Vodafone and Optus are doing roughly the same thing, not that they put any kind of time limit on it – but you know offering something for free when the handsets are relatively prohibitively expensive and like as you said we’re still in the rollout phase, doesn’t really mean much. So you’re either doing a bolt-on system or you know putting up your prices at the point where it’s actually more available is curious and I wish it was more surprising.
AT: How do you think the other telcos will respond as you say they haven’t announced timelines for when their pricing will change but how do you see it playing out over the next year or two?
TJ: Yeah that’s interesting because Optus has always maintained, like they’ve kept it pretty open, they always said that you know maybe you will have to at some point. Vodafone was the only telco, when they announced the rollout of their 5G network at the end of last year, that straight up said to myself on email that they would not charge extra for 5G. Now a few weeks ago they have now backflipped on that, understandable reasons, right. You don’t know what’s going to happen with millimeter wave you know maybe it will become more expensive. So now they’ve kind of gone more the Optus route and said that’s It would be fair to say that, you know, they’re not going to rule it out.
But I think that a lot of the time Telstra leads the way for a lot of this stuff. So I think that if Telstra never actually charges extra for 5G I cannot see Vodafone or Optus being able to justify it.
AK: We’ve seen similar kind of moves in the past from the MVNO space in some of them have had like super-cheap 3G-only plans or 3G-only plans with lots of data, that kind of thing, and obviously it’s all getting fed through from Telstra or Voda or Optus
How does, I’m taking a slight devil’s advocate position here, but how does that differ? Isn’t Telstra just saying if you want the best you’ve got to pay a bit more?
TJ: Yeah. I mean there is that, but I suppose it depends on what your definition of best is. I think that a lot of what Telstra had kind of been saying around this for the last year is that you know not everyone wants 5G speeds or doesn’t need 5G speeds right. Like not everyone needs that, early adopters who want to pay for it will grab it, et cetera et cetera. But I think it’s really important to remember that 5G or any new network isn’t just about speed. What it also offers is things like lower latency, making sure that more devices can connect to a network during peak periods and without dropouts you know when you’re on the train on the way to work, new year’s eve, sporting events, that kind of thing.
So I think in my opinion and this is where my strong opinions on democratising connectivity and technology comes into it, is that I don’t think that a government or service provider should really be telling people, you know, what they have a right to or not when it’s in my opinion basic infrastructure. I guess they’re the ones paying for it. But while they are putting in all of the money for it they’re also going to get all the profits from it including that price hike now. And you know any kind of lucrative government contracts et cetera that come from it. So I think that Australians have a fundamental right to good infrastructure and to have stuff that straight up works. It’s not just about speed.
AK: So keeping mts Telstra devil’s advocate on, because I don’t entirely disagree with you. But keeping my devil’s advocate hat o, I guess they could argue – and they do actually – I’m not guessing here at all –
TJ: I’m sure
AK: They would argue that having people jumping up to 5G frees up spectrum for 4G customers. So it’s a win win for both. It’s not necessarily a democratic issue if everyone has access on what they will state is the best network in Australia “TM”.
TJ: Yeah sure. I mean but that’s just them saying that like you know theoretically this would happen. I mean I can also jump on your bandwagon and say that you know that upgrading the towers also shows that 4G networks improve as well. So you know Telstra can certainly make that argument as well and I’ll hand that one to you in terms of that just being correct.
I just don’t think it sets a good precedent, especially with everything that’s happened with the NBN, that was sitting there saying that it is reasonable for people to have to pay a minimum of sixty five dollars a month or 60 I believe on pre-paid – someone can correct me if I’m wrong – to access what will be the next basic infrastructure when it comes to mobile connectivity. I just don’t think it sets a good precedent. I don’t like it.
AK: I’m honestly not sure what the 5G pre-paid story is at this point in time, I don’t know that Telstra said a lot of that either.
TJ: Yeah. No I don’t think so. The main event really has been about the post-paid. That is something that I had read, but I could be wrong, but essentially you know there’s nothing that sub sixty dollars right now. That’s pretty much where it’s at.
AK: Yeah, yeah., for sure.
AT: So thinking back to what we saw with the 4G rollout, what do you expect to see happen in terms of them making 5G available to their wholesale partners, prepaid and other areas once it’s not quite so, such an exclusive difficult thing to get. How do you think it will change in the next couple of years?
TJ: I’m actually entirely unsure. So I wasn’t in the industry when 4G rolled out so I don’t have anything to compare it, so that might be a good one for Alex to throw his predictions in as well. But that actually has been my question specifically around MVNOs and I can’t get anyone to answer my questions on that, when it will roll out to those partners.
But I do think that once it does that will probably help level the playing field a little bit. I mean it’s one of those things to right. So as the years go by it will get cheaper, it will become normalised and it’s not really just about the telcos there either. Most of the handsets that are even capable of 5G are quite expensive. There’s a handful of them now that ae kind of sitting at that sub 1000, between 600 and 1000 mark, so it’s getting there. But I do think it will take a few more years to make a limit not more normalised. Especially as we’re waiting for it to actually roll out.
AT: Now Alex, if I remember correctly, Telstra really dragged their heels on making 4G available to the MVNO partners.
AK: Yeah, look, largely yes. If history is a guide then Telstra was not quite the last because Vodafone was so slow to jump into 4G.
TJ: Slower than with 5G, may I ask?
TJ: Slower than what they have been with 5G?
AK: Oh yeah, way slower.
TJ: Wow, okay.
AK: By years slower. But Vodafone was very slow to market with 4G. But once it had it, it handed it over to the MVNO partners reasonably promptly. Telstra was a very very different story and for the longest time, as memory serves and this is going back a few years, Boost had it a little earlier than most and then its other MVNO partners, the likes of your Woolworths Mobile and Aldi Mobile and so on, and bits of Southern, had 4G. But it was all the Telstra wholesale network which, as they always say, is “parts” of the Telstra network.
Now, if you’re in the capital cities, if you’re in the big regional areas, that’s usually not a big drama. There are some more remote areas where you don’t get coverage that way at all, but you’ve got to really look at your coverage pretty intently to get that. I don’t know that Telstra will follow that course though with 5G but I can’t help but wonder as well and this is going to throw the question back in your direction Tegan, how much of this actually matters right now when we’re seeing situations like, for example, Adam you’re not really going to need 5G for the next month certainly because of your lockdown situation.
AT: No (laughs), thanks for reminding me, I was just starting to calm down.
AK: Look I want you angry, it makes you more passionate, but where are we seeing so many more people working from home, staying at home, not travelling as much, not commuting as much where they can avoid it. Does 5G matter as much?
TJ: No actually for the most part no. And I think that even if people were, we’re still at a stage where it’s rolling out so I don’t think it is as big a deal as other stuff that’s come out in terms of the five dollar and fifteen dollar price hikes and the grandfathering plans. I think those are the bigger deals out of what’s come about this week.
That being said though, it will perhaps be quite important to people who are looking for alternatives to NBN for whatever reason perhaps they don’t like it or you know they straight out can’t get it yet. So that’s where things like those 5G home broadband hubs and things like that are quite important.
So that will be perhaps something to think about and it is important to those potential customers.
AK: I guess they Optus has sort of set a bit of a base line though because they’ve got them with an anti-NBN product in effect.
TJ: That was part of the messaging to. Like even from last year, yeah yeah. They were not subtle about it. It was great.
AK: That puts but I mean that puts pressure on Telstra for when and if they do home broadband 5G. because right now they have 5G hotspots of course but they don’t specifically a “here’s our 5G home solution”. And every time you asked them they kind og day “oh, it’s something we might consider” but I suspect they’re more considering working out whether or not their infrastructure arm can buy the NBN itself in a couple of years.
TJ: Ha, yeah exactly. So you look it’s gonna be interesting to see but yeah to answer your question I think you’re right. I think that it is less of an issue for them right now and we’ll just see see how they actually handle it particularly in terms of pricing when it does matter a little bit more in the future.
AK: We’ll just about wraps up another episode of Vertical Hold. Thanks for Tegan for making time for the show this week.
TJ: Thank you for having me on and letting me you know kind of not quite yelled but be aggressive into a microphone.
AK: It’s what we’re here for. And if folks want even more of your aggression, where can they get that?
TJ: Oh they can definitely get that on Twitter. My Twitter is Teagan underscore Writes. So Tegan underscored W R I T E S and you can read my stuff over at Gizmodo Australia.
AK: And thanks also to Phil from Aussie Broadband. And of course you can catch up with us on Twitter at Vertical Hold AU or via the Vertical Hold Facebook page.
AT: And as always, thanks everyone for listening. Try to stay, home try to stay safe and send me a care package!
AT: Vertical Hold is proudly brought to you by Aussie Broadband. Changing the game with their award winning network an Australian based support.
AK: I just have to remember to send bears in to poke you at the appropriate approved points.
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